From Designer to Filmmaker: Shamsul Rosunally on Storytelling, Identity & Reinvention

Shamsul Rosunally (00:00)
that creative expression had to come out somehow. or I just basically, I would just die. imagined someone would just discover me slumped over the keyboard at one I would just die of depression. So I had another passion which was writing

However, at the time, as family does, my mother was saying, you can't leave the BBC. It's a great position. It's a great title. You're earning lots of money. Just stay there. So that pressure from my mother basically was overwhelming. So I decided I ended up staying there for about seven and a half years.

Heather Ebanks (00:21)
you

Hmm.

Heather Ebanks (00:48)
Have you ever felt stuck in a space that just doesn't see you? That's where today's guest, Shamsul Rosunally found himself. After years in the corporate world, he walked away to follow a deeper passion, storytelling and culture connection. Shamsul's journey hasn't been paved with perfection. It's been shaped by pivots, resilience and the courage to say no. From navigating self doubt and burnout, to balancing fatherhood and family life.

is had to redefine what creativity means on his own terms.

In our conversation, Shamsul opens up about leaving behind a career that left him feeling invisible, discovering storytelling as a lifeline when work drained his creativity, the realities of being a father, mentor and designer in a fast changing industry, and why owning your story is the most powerful creative tool you have. We also touch on everything from embracing AI to cultural icons like comedian Lenny Henry, ⁓

filmmaker Ryan Coogler to the importance of not becoming a victim to your circumstances. I've known Shamsul for years but this was the first time I really got to know him and trust me this story is one that so many creators will resonate with.

Shamsul Rosunally (02:03)
My name is Shamsul Rosunally a designer

I started off as a designer. quite early at university. I had a passion for computers and multimedia. after I left It was just a passion at that time because I was just so into...

video and digital platforms. So I eventually ended up in a startup company that did documentaries about wars and generals. we were kind of like at the cutting edge of that technology. I

quickly became a senior designer within that company and that was it basically. I just wanted to conquer the industry.

I joined the BBC around 1998 as head of creative design, so it was kind of like a big boost at the time, and I was so.

Heather Ebanks (03:01)
Yeah.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (03:06)
I was so ambitious and so gung-ho about working with BBC titles and BBC products. And I thought, I'm going to conquer the world basically. And then when I joined the BBC, it wasn't anything like that. It was very corporate and it was a bit of a shock.

Heather Ebanks (03:16)
Mm.

Mm. Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (03:29)
there was actually very little creative work, even though I was brought in as a creative to give my point and to guide these, these titles and products. It was, it was incredibly boring. It was just, it was just a struggle to actually get up to go into work because there was literally no work to do. And I would,

Heather Ebanks (03:42)
You

you

Shamsul Rosunally (03:53)
I found that a complete shock. after a year, I wanted out. just basically wanted to leave the BBC and try something and try something more dynamic, you know, because. ⁓

Heather Ebanks (04:00)
Hmm.

Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. It's

creative. You want to express yourself in many ways. if the job just doesn't give you that, then you've got to think about the alternatives.

Shamsul Rosunally (04:12)
I've set.

Absolutely. the thing is with corporations, kind of lock you in into how they want you to be and how they want you to express yourself. Right. Which is fine. You're working with very big titles and very big brands.

Heather Ebanks (04:30)
Hmm. ⁓

Shamsul Rosunally (04:36)
And however, my situation was actually worse than that. It was a case of like, we would only come to you when there's a problem, right? So instead of actually introducing me early on in a project cycle, they would basically just come to me when there was some firefighting that needed to be done.

Heather Ebanks (04:57)
That must be really

frustrating. How did that make you feel when they kept on doing that?

Shamsul Rosunally (05:01)
⁓ it was, it was very annoying. I have to say I would come in, and then, you know, it was, it had that kind of creative dread that you would actually not be able to contribute or express yourself. you would come in, I would literally go cap in hands to all my colleagues and say, have you got anything for me to do? Right. And inevitably there wasn't.

Heather Ebanks (05:24)
Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (05:25)
And it was like, most

Heather Ebanks (05:26)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (05:27)
You're earning loads of money and not actually doing any work. But for me, it was like, it was absolutely soul destroying. It was horrible. Yeah. there's only so much you can do during a day. You know, there's only so much, surfing the internet you can do. There's only so much chatting to your colleagues you can do, before you think, I can't stay here any more.

Heather Ebanks (05:31)
soul destroying.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (05:48)
However, at the time, as family does, my mother was saying, you can't leave the BBC. It's a great position. It's a great title. You're earning lots of money. Just stay there. So that pressure from my mother was overwhelming. So I decided to stay. And I ended up staying there for about seven and a half years.

Heather Ebanks (05:49)
you

Shamsul Rosunally (06:12)
So in the meanwhile, that creative expression had to come out somehow. or I just basically, I would just die. imagined someone would just discover me slumped over the keyboard at one I would just die of depression. So I had another passion which was writing or films specifically. And then so...

Heather Ebanks (06:34)
Yes, yeah. Remember you were saying,

yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (06:37)
So at the time I kind of had this kind of illusion of like, or this, kind of like ambition of becoming a film director. So I managed, I found out that one of the other departments had a digital suite, which was incredibly expensive, And only used very little. And I jumped on there and started learning the software and hardware. And then I decided I wanted to do a very short film. So I got a whole bunch of family and friends to help me.

Heather Ebanks (06:59)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (07:07)
do a 16 millimeter film, black and white, old school 16 millimeter and transfer that to digitally and edit it digitally. It's very, very early on. And like, you know, I edit it and it was like, it came out, you know, I thought it was quite good at the time, but the whole experience put me off because it was like directing is actually very hard work. But, then through that process,

Heather Ebanks (07:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, but you were experimenting

so you probably wanted to try out different, you know, mediums.

Shamsul Rosunally (07:31)
Yes,

but I kind of examined the whole process and I kind of said, well, the writing was probably the most interesting part to me. And so that's how I started. literally would come into work. I'd the answer a few emails and I just sit there writing. And it kind of got me sweared on. then, and then,

Heather Ebanks (07:38)
you

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (07:50)
an opening happened, they closed down the department and I was lucky enough to join a small startup company that still used the BBC brands, but basically was in a small office in Chiswick. me an opportunity to actually be creative. And it was wonderful. The CEO was just a guy called Dominic Wheatley who had made his millions, selling Tomb Raider.

Heather Ebanks (07:54)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (08:16)
he had worked at, basically the company that, that came up with the original idea of Tomb Raider. And basically he wanted to start up a new company. with his millions of pounds, he started this company and he hired the BBC team who had just been made redundant. So I was part of that team and it was wonderful because he just said, um, this is what I want. Go off, go off and do that shamsaw. And it was like, wow, yes, I will.

Heather Ebanks (08:24)
Ahem.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (08:40)
and he gave me lot of freedom.

Heather Ebanks (08:42)
Yeah, it seems like you needed someone to basically give you that encouragement and it sounds like you got that from him. Do you think he was like a mentor to you and encouraged

Shamsul Rosunally (08:50)
Not as such. A mentor, think, would be someone who I'd learn from, right? And he wasn't so much someone who'd learn because he was kind of, him being a CEO, he was very kind of like, he had to be one step away or two steps away from the employees because he was of like person who would like...

Heather Ebanks (08:57)
Okay.

show.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (09:11)
a very Alan Sugar, you know, Donald Trump sort of character. was like, I'll give you two or three weeks to produce this thing

Heather Ebanks (09:14)
Yeah.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (09:21)
the fact that he trusted you and he involved you early on basically was great. So in the meanwhile, I hadn't told him, I was already on a script writing course at the Royal Holloway.

Heather Ebanks (09:24)
Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (09:37)
university and I had specifically joined the Royal Holloway so that I try to get into UCLA master's writing course, And so in that period of time, I got an interview at UCLA, managed to get a placement for one year as a student abroad on a student abroad program

Heather Ebanks (09:37)
Right.

Okay.

Shamsul Rosunally (10:00)
UCLA master's school writing is harder to get in than Harvard business school, whether that's true or not. don't know. But it was, you know, it's an incredible, it's prestigious and it's like, and everybody wants to get onto that course. So when I managed to get that, I said, right, that's it. Basically I'm going to hand in my notice and basically go off to Los Angeles for one year.

Heather Ebanks (10:04)
Okay, yeah

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (10:23)
So that was, that journey of like, you know, starting to write because I was bored at the BBC kind of, you know, and that was like the next natural step.

Heather Ebanks (10:32)
That's amazing. I was also fascinated about people who are creatives, they feel they have to pivot

regenerate and kind of reinvent themselves just to to be who they are and I think you've definitely done a lot of pivoting in your career. I've been curious about your screenwriting, your writing, your storytelling. Where did that stem from? Have you always been a storyteller or interested in writing? Where did that

Shamsul Rosunally (10:59)
Yeah, I think that comes from my mother again. She was a huge influence on my life, because obviously she kind of like she was someone who managed to get into, what you call a public school in Malaysia. She's originally from Malaysia. She managed to get into a very prestigious public school.

just on our own merits. And that was like one of very few. It's a very famous one, not within, we wouldn't know it, right? But mentioned that to any Malaysian, right, they'll be like, oh, wow, your mom went to this school she, even though she was, she's very, she's very kind of, you've got to go to university, you've got to go and do this or whatever. She's very into that kind of like, you need to prove to everybody, et cetera, et cetera. So.

Heather Ebanks (11:16)
Mm.

Mm. Right.

Shamsul Rosunally (11:45)
she was also incredible storyteller, So basically, you'd sit down with her and she would either tell you something about Malaysia or she would tell you something about how she came to this country, the UK and then and through her career, met all these people and she had the ability to draw you into a story and then keep you engaged.

Heather Ebanks (12:05)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (12:07)
for half an hour, you know, in between doing things like cooking and whatever, yeah. And I think I've inherited some of that storytelling thing, but obviously it's, you know, I've kind of focused it towards the writing. I think, you know, say for example, I'm discovering now my daughter has that ability as well. So it's...

Heather Ebanks (12:22)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (12:31)
So yeah, that storytelling scriptwriting element has kind of come from, I think it's that wish to express yourself, to tell stories, I think is incredibly important. So I think that's really where the inspiration has come from.

Heather Ebanks (12:35)
Mm.

Mmm, yeah.

storytelling is very important, you know, it's a way of communicating, obviously, but it's, kind of feel like it's been handed down generations, even though they might not know that they're doing it. Like your mum, obviously, she said stories that she probably just thought was just like, you know, chit chat or maybe something that was important to her. But in the background subconsciously, you probably were learning an ob-

Shamsul Rosunally (13:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (13:09)
absorbing all that information and it rubbed off onto you.

Shamsul Rosunally (13:10)
Exactly, Yeah,

exactly. She would never tell you you're not really doing this right or you're not doing that wrong. She would suddenly launch into a story and then you wouldn't really know that she's trying to guide you or educate you while she's telling that story. And you wouldn't realize it until like a few hours later when you've left and you thought...

Heather Ebanks (13:21)
Hmm. Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (13:37)
she was trying to tell me this. Right. And then that is, that's the power of, you know, that's the power of story. The fact that you can guide people, educate people. And, ⁓ and if you do it in a skillful way, they wouldn't even realize there is an insidious kind of like side to that.

Heather Ebanks (13:48)
Mmm.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (13:59)
But I think there's also a very positive part of storytelling as well. And so, you know, it's interesting as we get into the TikTok era and we're coming out of TikTok into kind of more specific kind of information era that basically you can heavily influence someone in a negative way as well as a positive way.

Heather Ebanks (13:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

you mentioned something about your writer, does it taps? Can you explain what taps is? So yeah, what's taps?

Shamsul Rosunally (14:23)
yes that's correct yeah yeah yeah so

again that was a previous a previous another previous life another kind of like you know the word pivot basically is quite used quite commonly now if there is one word that that can describe me is like I pivot it may not seem not seem obvious to people what I'm

Heather Ebanks (14:34)
Mm. Pivotal.

Shamsul Rosunally (14:43)
doing, but it's just I have to feel like it's natural. it was when I came back from UCLA, I realized that basically I needed further education. because the thing of UCLA is it's a wonderful environment. It's a wonderful course, right, with wonderful teachers who are

directly connected to the film industry, but they cannot guarantee that you will end up being a good writer. that's, that's even though it's like, you know, one of three best of the best schools in the U S probably in the world for screenwriting and film direction, the success rate is still minute, right? Because, and I think

Heather Ebanks (15:08)
Mm. ⁓

Right.

Bye.

Shamsul Rosunally (15:29)
I think I had a healthy attitude when I went into UCLA, which was basically I'm here to learn. I know nothing, Whereas quite a lot of the other students used it as a way, it's sort of like a Willy waving exercise. Basically they thought because they'd got in there that they were the best, And so they, didn't kind of have an open heart or open mind to kind of learn, right?

Heather Ebanks (15:49)
⁓

Shamsul Rosunally (15:54)
So when I came out at UCLA, said, I realized I was still, still very bad at writing. and so therefore, I needed to put myself in an environment where basically I could still learn. So I applied for this job at TAPS, which was very well established. I I'd never heard of TAPS, right? Because I was never part of the

Heather Ebanks (16:13)
can explain

what taps is for those who are not familiar with it.

Shamsul Rosunally (16:17)
it was a company that actually it was a charitable organization that basically created and put on courses to basically help writers improve their writing. So they could come from nothing at all. And then so try to bring take them to the next step or they could already be established writers. And some of those writers came from

Heather Ebanks (16:24)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (16:37)
already had done episodes for Casualty or Doctors or whatever on BBC TV or BBC TV or ITV. So they would basically help them again kind of pivot or help them fill the gaps in their knowledge so that they could basically improve their writing and basically make those connections with an industry. So unfortunately the company

Heather Ebanks (16:41)
understand yeah

then.

Shamsul Rosunally (16:58)
went bust a few years after I'd left which was a real shame because it was a fantastic scheme to basically you know take writers on and say look ⁓ we can help you make those connections we can help you improve your improve your writing by introducing to you to more established writers right and see whether you can get you so was an amazing time

Heather Ebanks (17:10)
Mm.

Mm. Yeah.

What was your experience there? Obviously you learnt something there, you learnt a lot. But how was relating to other writers? Did you see anyone who looked like you there?

Shamsul Rosunally (17:36)
So it's interesting, Obviously, was at the the time, basically, there was an interest to actually help bring on writers, but specifically also focus, getting

governmental money, or governmental grants, was, you know, the notion that you would bring on writers from the BA and ME background. So it was very part of the scheme, very much part of the scheme to basically look for those writers, whether it was from, Asian or Afro-Caribbean backgrounds. me being in the

Heather Ebanks (17:59)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (18:11)
On the other side, where I'm part of the admin, going through that process, there was two things I discovered, It was very much a ticking process where basically we did it specifically so that we could say to the local authorities or government saying that, yes, we had.

Heather Ebanks (18:16)
Mm-hmm.

you

Shamsul Rosunally (18:34)
this amount of Asians and this amount of African Caribbean or black writers or whatever, And it was difficult trying to encourage people to actually come because actually there wasn't enough writers out there to actually fill the slots. So maybe at times the quality of the writer wasn't great. specifically because we had to, you know, to tick that box

Heather Ebanks (18:40)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (18:56)
part of the problem was, you know, those, it was the same faces that kept on turning up at the courses and whatever. So there wasn't enough. then, you know, um, you know, you know, I thought about, what, wasn't there enough? And I think it's, you know, you can't really blame, you can't say it was like, uh, uh, outright racism or something like that. It all prejudice, It was very much a case of like, I think people from.

Heather Ebanks (19:03)
I see, yeah.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (19:23)
our background, we don't come from families that encourage us to be creative. So therefore, the very few people who were coming through, they stepped out by themselves and established themselves. So the same faces and the same names kept on appearing. So I found that really...

Heather Ebanks (19:32)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah, got that.

got a valid point about, know, people who are from, you know, minorities that they're kind of like for them, medicals or doctors or lawyer kind of backgrounds.

Shamsul Rosunally (19:55)
Yeah,

yeah, but this is kind of a reciprocal thing. It's like, don't, you know, I think that's a symptom of the situation environment in England, At the time, you have to remember, this was the time before you saw brown and black faces on TV, You never saw that many.

Heather Ebanks (20:13)
Mm.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (20:22)
brown or black faces on adverts or television So that, I guess people will say, if I'm not represented, therefore why should I basically maybe even enter that industry or whatever? And, you know, I, few years later after this, I saw that kind of wonderful talk by Lenny Henry at BAFTA, I think it was 2014, right?

Heather Ebanks (20:26)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, I did see that,

yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (20:48)
Yeah,

and it was such, you know, because you can't basically say to people, this is the reason why you don't have enough people from ethnic minorities in this profession, It's because of racism or basically prejudice or bias or whatever. There was no way of quantifying that and saying this is my evidence, right? So therefore...

Heather Ebanks (21:09)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (21:11)
we need to keep pushing that so that we can encourage more people to step forward and take a chance, right? And to make, and to earn money so that they can have a career, right? Because we can't encourage them to have a career because there's no possibility. So why should they make the effort? But having someone like Lenny Henry say, look, you

Heather Ebanks (21:17)
Mm.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (21:31)
get up there obviously we grew up with Lenny Henry. but I didn't realize he was so eloquent and so, and so diplomatic, you know, cause he never kind of really wanted to shove it down people's He did it in a very,

Heather Ebanks (21:37)
Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (21:45)
kind of diplomatic way, right, which basically, and I thought he was amazing.

Heather Ebanks (21:45)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, just to add to

about Lenny Henry, people who don't know who Lenny Henry is, he's a well-known comedian in the UK and he's been a producer, a writer and also I think with regards to what Shamsul was saying that there was some, I'll put in the notes, he's got a proposal as well that that relines to what he's discussed in the BAFTAs. He's got a proposal that's out available and I'll link it down below.

Shamsul Rosunally (22:14)
Hmm.

Heather Ebanks (22:18)
But yeah, Danny Henry, he has a lot of... Really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (22:21)
And he went to Royal Holloway as well, which is the same university I went to actually do screenwriting. Yeah. A few years afterwards, I think he did his masters there. So he obviously, he was pivoting as well because he, know,

very successful comedian, stand up, then went on to television and then has done TV series But he obviously came to the point of his career where he's like, you know, I need

Heather Ebanks (22:38)
you

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (22:44)
something else, so So he went for the same motions that everybody else does. But obviously he had the ready access, But you know, I'm hoping that at some point he'll do another BAFTA talk because essentially that 2014 was a review of his 2008 speech,

And then, and

so I'm hoping that he does another review and it's all like, says, okay, things have moved along, But here's where we need to kind of push, keep pushing. But, you know, things have changed. There are more, there are more writers, but at the time when I was at TAPS, you know, you could see, you could, you know, it's excruciating to hear people talk about,

Heather Ebanks (23:14)
Yeah.

Mm.

Mm.

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (23:31)
but there was accusations of particular writers from particular backgrounds being, they're too lazy. They don't want to sort of like, and it was absolutely infuriating to hear that. But at a time it was like, look, I'm here to work. I'm here to encourage writers to improve.

Heather Ebanks (23:33)
Mm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (23:49)
shut and and deal with it when you're in those kind of circles you hear you hear absolutely terrible things, right and you think You're you're the reason why It is and it was absolutely it was it was shocking to me to hear those things right because

Heather Ebanks (23:58)
imagine yeah it's the way it is

You probably think,

yeah, but to say you have to keep your mouth shut because you don't want to lose your job and you you do your most that you can, but it's not good enough. They want you to do all the great stuff, the admin stuff, but they don't want you to give you a promotion, for example.

Shamsul Rosunally (24:28)
Well, it was a small company, there was no way I was going to run a company or whatever. I had no ambitions to run it. I was still essentially a writer, ⁓ and I desperately wanted to do that. when I put myself alongside those writers who were coming on the course, I said, I'm just not ready. I think that's kind of like, I think you have to be...

Heather Ebanks (24:30)
Hmm.

Fair enough.

Okay.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (24:51)
realistic and wise about your situation. can't, it's easy to beat yourself up, but if you, you know, if you come to a fight and you haven't, you know, don't know how to fight, then you're going to lose very quickly. So I didn't want to, I was, then with writers specifically, you, whatever you write is your little baby. Once you put it in front of it, as a writer, you are very vulnerable, right? So you put it in front of the wrong people.

Heather Ebanks (24:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, fair enough.

Mm.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (25:18)
or even the right people and your work is not quite there, right? They may be harsh, they may be subtle, but you take it on, you know, and that can be very heartbreaking at the time because it's like, are you calling my baby ugly? Right? And it's like, it's not a nice thing to hear, right? And so you have to develop a quite a thick skin.

Heather Ebanks (25:31)
Mm.

you

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (25:46)
And even now, I don't think I've got a skin that's thick enough to actually deal with that. now I think I'm in a better position to argue why this is important in a script. I think as a creative, you need to take on criticism and you need to be guided as well.

Heather Ebanks (25:46)
Yeah. What leather. ⁓

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (26:07)
You know, in this, in the, in the media industry, there, really isn't as many, mentors as you kind of want, right. And I feel like there's that there's probably only like a dozen people that you could go to, right. That actually could open doors or could guide you or could help you. and then we just need more of those sort of people. So now.

Heather Ebanks (26:17)
Okay.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (26:30)
I'm going to be a mentor to my children whether they like it or not. It's like, I'm going to teach you script writing, I'm going to teach you how to think differently because the schools won't do that for you now. It's very academic, it's about writing English or maths, whatever, which is great but...

Heather Ebanks (26:37)
Nothing wrong with that.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (26:51)
the creative element has almost completely disappeared. You have to pay extra. So I'm trying to fill that gap with my children and trying to prepare them. Trying to prepare them for like the onslaught of AI, which I've embraced, teach them about storytelling and structure and character design and character arcs

Heather Ebanks (26:53)
Mm.

That sounds excellent. Yeah.

life yeah

Hmm

Shamsul Rosunally (27:14)
free act structures and all things I learned from UCLA and from Royal Holloway and all the things I've learned since.

Heather Ebanks (27:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, and that's

think as a parent, you know, you are a teacher in some ways to your to your kids and and I think some things you can't teach life experiences and you're passing that down. That sounds like a great way of, you know, getting them to learn about what it's really like, especially if people who don't look like us. You have to prepare them for that because there's not only you have to be a creator, you have to deal with

Shamsul Rosunally (27:42)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Ebanks (27:47)
how people perceive you on the outside, unfortunately.

Shamsul Rosunally (27:51)
Yeah.

And I think that's certainly changing. think that landscape is going to be completely different in two to three years time. It has changed. You do see a lot more Black and Asian creatives, which is wonderful, Too little, too late, as far as I'm concerned,

Heather Ebanks (28:02)
Hmm.

Yeah, I do know.

Shamsul Rosunally (28:14)
you know, being someone who's been around at the right time, I wasn't around for that at the right time, unfortunately. I think there was like a generation of Asian and specifically Black creators who basically were first in the line to basically benefit

Heather Ebanks (28:19)
Mm.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (28:32)
from this change, who would just kick to the side because someone else who behind them basically came along. So you see that a lot of people from African or Indian backgrounds who fit that kind of that brown and black face kind of like have benefited, whereas all those people who have come, who basically made first generation, second generation. ⁓

Heather Ebanks (28:37)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (28:58)
Asian or Caribbean background have basically just been ignored because, okay, you weren't around when the purse was starting to open. I find that really frustrating. It's like, everything has changed for the good, but... ⁓

Heather Ebanks (29:05)
Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (29:15)
it was I wasn't there to receive it and I feel kind of like slightly cheated I'm very much a person who says look I don't want to be a victim. I don't want to sound like a victim. It's like ⁓ You have to move on you know, I you know that philosophy of like Stop blaming others, you know, because at the of the day, you know if it's

Heather Ebanks (29:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (29:36)
If say, for example, say it's white males who've basically been in charge of this industry, you know, were reluctant to let other people in, into their kind of, you know, they worked very, very hard to establish that. They worked incredibly hard and incredibly talented, you know. And if they didn't want other people to come in,

Heather Ebanks (29:42)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (30:00)
I can understand that because they're protecting their patch, right? And unfortunately, they're a bit racist, they're a bit prejudiced, we missed that boat, unfortunately, when they were forced somewhat to open that door. maybe I would have been the same, I don't know.

Heather Ebanks (30:03)
Yeah, they worked hard for it, yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (30:24)
Right. would think I'd like to think I wouldn't be, like that. would be more inclusive. I'd be less discriminatory, but, until you're into that situation, won't know. Now, we're in this situation where, kind of say we were cheated. we missed the boat or whatever, because there'll be another boat coming. Right. And then that, and then we've got to be.

Heather Ebanks (30:25)
Mm.

Mm. Mm. Yeah.

Hmm. Yes.

Shamsul Rosunally (30:47)
we got to be ready for that. what's me is the AI movement, right? Because now, if you have those particular skills, which is basically a creative skill and an ability to understand their technology,

Heather Ebanks (30:49)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (31:05)
now the colour of your skin doesn't matter at all.

film industry as example. Sinners has made the rounds in the theatre and it is an amazing film. a film that basically kind of like

Heather Ebanks (31:12)
Yeah, yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (31:20)
shows you that look there are other stories told in a different way that can be completely engrossing completely and yes it had to go through the traditional kind of film development channels but it was like shocking to everyone right because it's like wow this film is basically

Heather Ebanks (31:25)
Mm. Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (31:42)
made a hell of a lot of money, and is artistically sound and production-wise and everything's sound on it, right, so basically it's... and you can't deny what it's done, Now, everybody would like to sort of like say, you know, Black Panther was that film,

Heather Ebanks (31:54)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (32:05)
Black Panther. don't think it was, I found that film a little bit grating because it was like, it felt to me a little bit kind of like push down your throat right and because okay it showed you a different way of looking at the world through the African culture and ⁓ then putting Wakanda on a kind of like saying look

Heather Ebanks (32:06)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (32:29)
Yeah, you people

from that. But it was it's all fantasy. doesn't actually mean anything. Right. But whereas this one, OK, still fantasy, but it kind of shows you that basically, look, it wasn't what was portrayed on screen. That was fantastic. was the way that it basically it introduced a different way of telling a story. And that was wonderful. Absolutely wonderful to see. It was ⁓ I was mesmerized.

Heather Ebanks (32:34)
Mm. Mm.

Mmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah I was,

yeah I just like the way how the Sinners maybe was as we're talking about this it's a lot to talk about but there's how Ryan Cooger mixed the past, the present and the future in one moment that was very interesting the way he directed that and also the main character Sammy he I can relate to as he had to hide his

his creativity as a person of colour. You know, I won't give any spoilers if anyone hasn't watched it, but when he had to hide his, he's a musician and he had to put his guitar under the bed. You know, I just feel like as creatives that's, and especially in those times you couldn't be expressive.

so even though it was an extreme situation I think even today some people who are underrepresented whether they're neurodivergent or disabled whatever their creativity is with their that's not them they can't they don't want to be known for or the disabled designer or the black creator they just want to get on and be creative

Shamsul Rosunally (34:02)
Yeah,

absolutely.

Heather Ebanks (34:05)
But yeah, there's lots of things in the movie that a lot people can resonate with. So, yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (34:11)
Yeah, I think it

was a real eye-opener to me. Not in sense that it was surprising and unexpected. I think it was like there was an elation that it's finally come.

Heather Ebanks (34:15)
Yes.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (34:31)
And

it seems like I've maybe I'm bigging it up a bit. essentially as a film, it had still problems with it, right? But it was just kind of, it was just, I don't know, artistically and it was just basically. ⁓

Heather Ebanks (34:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (34:49)
and storytelling wise, it was just engrossing. It was just a wonderful piece, right? And so maybe some other people might actually look at it and say, well, what's the fuss about? You won't understand how significant it is until you basically, unless you've come from a creative background and kind of understood the struggles that he obviously had in actually making this thing and actually doing it from specifically his point of view, right?

Heather Ebanks (34:59)
interpret it differently yeah yes yes

⁓

Yes.

Shamsul Rosunally (35:18)
you know, from him.

So yeah, was like, it gave me, and I thought, you know, was like, fantastic, that's come along, it's like, you're sailing on the ocean in the dark, right? And suddenly that lighthouse switches on.

Heather Ebanks (35:31)
Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (35:35)
which is on this light and now I know where I am and where I'm going. And I think ⁓ Sinners represents that as well as say for example ⁓ the AI kind of scene that's coming. It's a wonderful way of democratizing

Heather Ebanks (35:36)
Yes. Exactly, yeah. ⁓

Shamsul Rosunally (35:53)
the landscape, right? So basically now there's not only particular channels that you have to go through and say, for example, they don't like or don't, don't accept that. Then you, won't be able to enter through that door. now it's just, you can see where the door is going to be completely wide open. Right. And it doesn't make any difference. Now you've got sinners on one, on one hand, and you've got AI on the other hand, right now.

Heather Ebanks (35:55)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Hmm

Yeah, ⁓

Mm-hmm

Shamsul Rosunally (36:20)
you can see how

basically, yes, people are interested in our stories, And now I don't have to kill myself or try to prove myself, before I can get my story out there, because AI will basically eliminate that, And so...

Heather Ebanks (36:26)
Yes.

Shamsul Rosunally (36:40)
I think that we're in an absolutely wonderful situation where basically you have to prepare now. As person an ethnic minority or any particular minority, ⁓ you have to pivot yourself now and prepare for when the technology catches up, And then you can tell your story,

Heather Ebanks (36:52)
Hmm. ⁓

Yeah.

yeah yeah

Shamsul Rosunally (37:03)
Because there will be no one there to kind of like look at your resume

or your CV and say, yeah, thank you very much for applying for this position or thanks for getting in touch and talking to us. But, you know, maybe it doesn't fit what we want to produce as a company. that will completely change. Right.

Heather Ebanks (37:09)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, think you're future proofing your, your, yourself really. And I know there's a lot of discussion with AI, some people are scared of it. I think it's, it's just a tool at the end of the day. It's how you use it. so yeah, this, your AIs are definitely, it's here to stay. We just have to make sure that we understand it and yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (37:43)
I think I have to, yeah, yeah,

you know, like everyone, I think at the back of your mind, you know where, how it can be abused and abused really badly, right? But whether you like it or not, you know, this morning I was listening to a GPT, a podcast about GPT ⁓ and how students are using it to cheat, obviously, and it's become

Heather Ebanks (37:51)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (38:08)
It's

become epidemic, there's ways around to, get around there kind of like testing and, know, see where this through chat, GPT and whatever, ⁓ you know, but I've told my children, you know, this is, these are the tools basically. You know, you still have to be, you can't expect that AI apps to actually do everything for you. You still have to put some legwork into it. You can exploit it.

Heather Ebanks (38:10)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly, yeah.

Yeah, Mm. Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (38:32)
Yeah, but you still need to be creative. You still need to understand character arcs, three act

structures, all the things that are really important to storytelling. You ⁓ you need to understand that. And I'm slowly educating them, but you know, also, you know, I'm bracing this and saying, look, this chat GPT, it can help you rewrite your scene or whatever, but don't expect chat GPT to produce something for you because it'll be rubbish. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (38:43)
Mm.

Mm.

you

Shamsul Rosunally (39:00)
Maybe

one day it'll be fantastic, right? But until then, basically, you still have to put the legwork in, right? So it's very interesting days, you know. ⁓

Heather Ebanks (39:02)
Yeah.

Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

I've got a segment called Studio Draw. It's a play on words. That's kind of the messy part of your behind the scenes of you being a creative. The bit that no one talks about, so...

what is something in your desk or studio drawer that you use to design that you can't do without?

Shamsul Rosunally (39:31)
when you're creating, or specifically for me, writing, now all my focus is on writing. I still do some of the design, design the characters for my screenplays. It's basically, once you find a comfortable setup, right, it has to be there. I have all the...

or electronic gizmos that you could possibly think I could write anywhere at any time using anything right. But the somewhat frustrating situation is that now I've connected my PC to my living room TV, right? And I sit on my sofa and I basically sit there with all my gadgets, right? And I'm the absolute most comfortable in the living room.

Heather Ebanks (39:57)
Yeah.

But.

Shamsul Rosunally (40:17)
writing in front of my TV, on the sofa where I've made a little nest, right. Unfortunately, it's the main room of the house, So basically, at any given moment, my children or my wife will just come in and then completely distract me. And it's just so annoying. I...

I've tried to go to internet cafes, I've tried to set up my own space or whatever, but it just doesn't feel natural. that's the thing that I've, unfortunately, I've got to the situation where it's like, now I have to plan my days and plan my, so luckily I'm an absolute early riser. So on most days at 6.30 in the morning, I'm already in front of the TV writing stuff.

Heather Ebanks (40:42)
Mm. Mm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (41:03)
So,

and I get maybe two, two to three hours to myself before the kids get up and start asking for breakfast

Heather Ebanks (41:07)
Yeah.

saying that the sofa is something that you can't do without.

Shamsul Rosunally (41:14)
I

can't do, yeah, it's bizarre, but it's strategy. It's not, it's not, it's not an object. Most other people would be like, you know, it's like a, need my special mug or I need my special pen or whatever. I don't need any of that stuff. I just need, I just need, I just need to be comfortable where I, you know, a big screen, you know, and that's, all I need. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (41:26)
Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

Mm-hmm

The next question I have for you, what is the weirdest source of inspiration you've ever used in a project?

Shamsul Rosunally (41:42)
⁓ weirdest.

Heather Ebanks (41:44)
⁓

Shamsul Rosunally (41:45)
again, coming back to writing rather than design, it's not so much weird. think, you know, they often say, write from what you know. then the screenplays I write inevitably always come back to my relationships with my children, my wife.

Heather Ebanks (41:49)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (42:14)
and my parents and my family and friends. So I draw from that. So sometimes the characters may speak in a particular way or say something and then say for example my daughter or someone's reading the script.

Heather Ebanks (42:17)
Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (42:32)
I'm just looking at them thinking, have they noticed I'm using their voice in my script? they don't often kind of make the connection, is like, whew. But yeah, I think sometimes I draw quite a lot of my humor and drama from the people around me. It's not so I'm not usually basing the characters wholeheartedly on them.

Heather Ebanks (42:52)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (42:53)
⁓ but I'm drawing from a conversation or something like that. So it doesn't fall into the category of weird. It's really a case of like, they might find it weird that I'm drawing personal conversations or experiences into my storytelling. They might find that really weird and uncomfortable, but actually, you know.

Heather Ebanks (42:57)
The personality, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (43:16)
Whether it's animated characters or something set in space or whatever, you do have to draw from what you know. And I think that's really important.

Heather Ebanks (43:21)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Last question, what is something chaotic about your creative process that you secretly love?

Shamsul Rosunally (43:35)
chaotic that I secretly love. Oh god, that's an interesting one.

Heather Ebanks (43:36)
Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (43:40)
that's an interesting question that one the thing is that uh writing is generally quite chaotic anyway so I sometimes I won't state you know I'll

try out our ideas or try out the things and then I'll kind of like develop it and I'll see where it's going. And then, but I'm happy to ditch it, Because I think that sometimes people get too engrossed in one idea and thinking and putting all the effort into this one idea only to find out that it's terrible by the time they finish the process or if someone feeds back on it.

Heather Ebanks (44:13)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (44:15)
I try not to be too precious about stuff. So I can flip-flop at times, but at the back of my mind, I'm kind weighing in whether this is commercially viable and creatively appealing to someone.

Heather Ebanks (44:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (44:38)
So basically, I'm doing those calculations, the background, I'll develop something and then at some point I might just ditch it. most entrepreneurs have the same kind of like mindset as well. They'll try ideas. If it fails, they won't, rest on that and sort of say, ⁓ I failed. so they move on to the next entrepreneurial idea, right. And then try that until something

Heather Ebanks (44:59)
Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (45:01)
It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall. What's in a later one? It will stick, right? And I think writing or design or whatever, it's kind of like, it is always chaotic at the beginning, but sometimes it will, it's a method in the madness really. Someone outside will think, what the hell are you doing? You tried this last year and then you tried this.

Heather Ebanks (45:04)
You

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (45:26)
this year, you know, just stick to one, often get that kind of like, well, you just stick, just stick to one thing and just do it, you know, and it's like, and I don't think creative process is like that. You know, you try stuff, you go to, you try, push it. If it reaches the end, fantastic. But if you have to abandon it halfway through, then drop it. Don't feel too precious about it. And I, again, same kind of philosophy I use with my children. I say, look, you develop this idea at any point.

Heather Ebanks (45:28)
Yes.

No. Exactly.

Mmm. Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (45:55)
you feel that this is not good enough or you get bored or whatever, start something new, And I think you really do have to have that kind of mindset to say, look, I have to try something new. This hasn't worked out to try something. And that philosophy also relates to the work environment. I think we're in a different kind of era now where you do have to pivot.

Heather Ebanks (46:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (46:22)
you do have to kind of like, because no one can predict what's going to happen, right? So you have to have that ability to kind of try stuff, drop it, and then try something else and do that quickly, not to kind of like stay too long in this, yeah, in this thing. you know, and then that will happen organically and naturally. So I think for my kids, the other thing I'm trying to teach them is like...

Heather Ebanks (46:26)
yes ⁓

Yeah. Mm. Recover.

Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (46:48)
you don't get too precious about your stuff. Try to, you know, try stuff out, try something new. But you know, when you do find something, you know, go, you know, 100 % right, focus on that, try to get to the end. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (46:52)
Hmm. Hmm.

I think you might have answered my question I was going to ask you next. But I'll throw it out to you anyway. You might have come up with some other solutions. This is the last one for you. If you could leave listeners with just one piece of real no BS advice about thriving creatively, what would it be?

Shamsul Rosunally (47:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

being creative is not just about you, it's about other people as well. So it's the, you know, you may want to express yourself, But there might not be a recipient.

on the other ends to basically listen to you, Or you may be shouting in your own kind of like vacuum, Because either you've created that vacuum or someone else has created that vacuum. So you just have to try stuff and then if it doesn't work, just move on to something else. Again, rather like business, if it doesn't succeed.

Heather Ebanks (47:38)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (48:00)
you know, being expressive, it's not just about the one idea, it's about many ideas and it's not just about you, you have to try to communicate to one other person. It could be one other person, but it's about communicating. And yeah, think, you know, ideas more often are collaborative, and I think it changes once you communicate with other people. if people like your ideas, they'll tell you straight away.

Heather Ebanks (48:21)
Mm.

Shamsul Rosunally (48:29)
And if they don't like obviously they'll be critical. So you need to, I think you need to, I think you need to basically talk to other people. And I think that's one of the reasons why, you know, I was like really happy to talk to you about it because it's like, it, isn't, the process is very painful. Yeah. but it's, it's that urge.

the uncontrollable urge to express yourself or try and try to find a way to do it. And you have to feel your way around in the dark, You have to basically, you have to kind of like, speak to other people, know, you know, talk about your ideas, and then basically, and in the meanwhile, give back to other people. So basically, you know, it's like, how can I help you?

Heather Ebanks (48:55)
Yes.

Hmm.

Shamsul Rosunally (49:16)
express yourself, how can I help you achieve your goals? Really, I think my piece of advice is like, it's a two way street. You have to give and you have to take. You can't just be like, you're going to just listen to me and that's it. If you don't like my idea, then I'll just move on to another one. It's not quite like that. It's like, think you've to...

Heather Ebanks (49:17)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Shamsul Rosunally (49:41)
You've got to be able to listen to other, and then, know, rather like storytelling, I had to listen to my mother before I could basically become a better, you before I, you know, became a storyteller. You have to be able to listen to other people before you can basically start opening your mouth, I think. So, yeah.

Heather Ebanks (50:02)
That's thank you, that was absolutely wonderful. And if there's anybody who wants to reach out to you how would they get to you know social media handles, how can they support you in your work as well?

Shamsul Rosunally (50:14)
You know what, I used to be a really good networker in the past, I've been reluctant to do this until I'm rather like a butterfly coming out of the cocoon for the first time. I'm ready to spread my wings, But I'm not quite there yet because I want to basically present something to you.

Heather Ebanks (50:26)
you

Shamsul Rosunally (50:36)
If someone wants to support me, ⁓ I'm happy to provide an email or whatever. I'm happy to support other people. I don't have a social media presence at the moment. I'm just emerging from the dark again. I've been in a cocoon.

little while and and I'm yeah and then when I make my splash you better be ready I'm telling you

Heather Ebanks (51:02)
Make it sound like you're Batman.

Heather Ebanks (51:14)
Shamsul's journey took us from being a designer in a corporate space to embracing his voice as a storyteller and filmmaker. What stood out to me was the tension between working in environments that stifled creativity and his drive to tell stories that matter, especially those that amplified underrepresented voices.

Like so many creatives, he faced systematic barriers, a lack of mentorship, and the frustration of feeling cheated by an industry that often overlooks diverse perspectives. Yet instead of staying silent, he leaned into storytelling, sought mentors and embraced pivots that allowed him to reclaim his creative freedom.

The result wasn't overnight success, but transformation. Invisibility became impact, vulnerability became strength, and the career pivots became fuel for growth. Shamsul's Journey reminds us that your creative path doesn't have to be linear to be meaningful. As you reflect on this episode, ask yourself, where are you still hiding your story from the world? How could the challenges in your creative journey spark a new invention, and who could you reach out to?

to as a mentor or ally to lift you forward.

Thank you for listening. If this episode challenged, inspired, or stirred something in you, hit subscribe and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Because bold voices and messy journeys

deserve zero apologies.