Design, Diversity, and Determination: The Story Behind Creatively Eccentric

Heather Ebanks (00:31)
In this first episode, you'll get to know me and why I created Creatively Eccentric. I chat with my friend, Roziah Together, we're diving into the reality of creative careers, the highs, the lows, and everything in between. We talk about life, during and after university, graphic design, career challenges, burnout, and cultural perspectives.

and how family, community and collaboration have shaped the way I work and create. You also get real about toxic workplaces, redundancy and how powerful it feels when you finally take control of your creative freedom.

This is going to feel like you're right here with us laughing and learning along the way. A lighthearted but candid conversation between two friends.

Heather Ebanks (01:19)
Hey, Roziah how you doing? Not too bad. it'd be weird me asking my own questions. So I thought I'd bring my friend along with this journey about getting to know me, the host of Creatively Eccentric. So yes, I've started a new podcast. thank you, Roziah. Roziah is a friend of mine,

Roziah (01:21)
Hi, how are you? I'm alright, how are you?

you

Heather Ebanks (01:41)
She is... Yeah. We've known each other for quite a long time and we met at uni. Yeah, was it... God, 1998? Yeah, back in the 1800s, you know, before...

Roziah (01:42)
You sure? You sure I'm a friend of yours?

in the 18... 1800s.

Heather Ebanks (01:57)
horse and cart. Okay, we're not that old. yeah, Rose and I, we would go way back and we met at the same uni, we did the same degree. And was it visual communication?

Roziah (01:59)
Yeah.

It was called visual communications, but essentially it was graphic design. was, I don't know why they called it that. was just like a very, I don't know, they wanted to make it a different course because it was a group of universities, wasn't it? And so like, there was like one uni that had graphic design and then we had to be the sort of like slightly different one to call it visual communication. But it's all the same thing, isn't it?

Heather Ebanks (02:15)
Yeah, basically, Yeah.

Right, yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, but I think when I say, I don't even

call it that now, I just say graphic design, like you say, it's the same thing. But yeah, that's where we met. And I don't know your first impressions of me, I think we didn't actually meet immediately, we had loads of stuff going on. I think, we're just busy getting our,

Roziah (02:40)
Yeah, I do.

I honestly,

I honestly, those days have like a gone to me, I think. Like, I remember the projects. They're not dead. They're just like, I honestly can't remember those days apart from specific projects. So working with you on a project and then working with set and other people and then doing degree shows. Those were like the highlights and those were the things where I have very, very distinct memories. But day to day, I can't remember like what

Heather Ebanks (02:57)
Alright. For dead to you.

Mm. Yes.

Mm.

Roziah (03:22)
The day was like.

Heather Ebanks (03:24)
Yeah, I remember there was lots of gaps in the

programs because some of them were still trying to get their stuff together and meeting tutors and lot of lectures and deciding which ones we're going to do. But yeah, the projects are the things I remember the most. I remember...

Roziah (03:36)
Yeah.

Yeah. Do you

remember your first day there then? Do you remember like starting and joining and then meeting everyone?

Heather Ebanks (03:46)
vaguely, maybe not the very

first day, but I definitely remember like there was a lot of us going to different like uni clubs and going to the bars and and

Roziah (03:58)
All

the good things about uni you remember then.

Heather Ebanks (04:02)
course yeah but but yeah the relationship and the bits in between but the lectures not so much I think I do remember certain projects I remember I think we're doing our typography project understanding typography I'm thinking why are we doing this it's just so

Roziah (04:09)
Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (04:18)
time consuming, can't we just jump on a Mac or a computer or something?

Roziah (04:22)
Yeah, my view is kind of like at the time you're just like in uni, you're young and you're excited and you want to learn the technology. I don't know how you felt about that, but it was very much like what exactly the same. Why are we doing this? It's hand lettering, like blah, blah, blah. Now I really appreciate it. Now I'm like, oh, there's like a rock of real art to it. So I don't know how you feel about it now, but like with my daughter, I explained to her, look, we used to have to write stuff.

Heather Ebanks (04:29)
Hmm. Yeah.

Yes!

Yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (04:51)
And then when you see now, I don't know how, again, how much like you've seen like design these days, but you look at the kerning and the type spacing and all of that, and you really appreciate it. And you go, ⁓ these people weren't trained the right way.

Heather Ebanks (04:56)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, at the time when you're in that moment, you think, yeah, this is a waste of time. But as the weeks went on for each lesson, like you said, you realize why type is the way it is in its construction and its, you know, the space within the page and how it lays out between the current and the typography. even the history of the typeface was interesting to me as well. So those lessons were very grounded.

Roziah (05:10)
Thank

Heather Ebanks (05:32)
you needed to know that information to understand why type is the way it is, why we design the magazines we do and the publications. And so yeah, it was all educational and it was all informative. But yeah, I remember a lot of things, of good times we had and also amount of design books I bought at that bookstore we had that was in the center. Yeah, good design books. Yeah. So.

Roziah (05:52)
that was insane. That was so good. Design

books, that was like my, and to think now, like the cost of them now, like it's double, or even if you can't really find those little books anymore, which is like, I'm never getting rid of those books ever. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (06:01)
Yeah

Yeah, publications, yeah. They still have those, yeah, exactly. And

I think even though some of them were like pre-loved or secondhand, it was still good reference books that were never gonna date. yeah. But yeah, after the uni days, I think, and like you said, you mentioned we did a project together. Do you remember that project very well?

Roziah (06:28)
Yes,

I remember that project. I remember you talking about it not too long ago as well. And I think I have, I still have some of it. There was a lot that I'd thrown away basically and I kind of just go, why did I throw that away? I'm not sure. Like maybe I was just going through a phase of like, need to clear out stuff and like make room for new things, new creative. But yes.

Heather Ebanks (06:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. Hmm. Oh, that's a shame.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think it

was a good time because I think I've always wanted to do projects with you. we did a project called Return to Slender. was a play on. Yeah, I think I do. The brief is basically we had to pick someone well known and it was to do with like spatial design. I think it was also marketing and promotional. I think we did the promotional project.

Roziah (07:03)
what the brief was though, the original brief.

⁓ yes.

Heather Ebanks (07:19)
and we chose Elvis Presley. Elvis Presley is well known and I think we decided we'd pick a specific part of his career. And I think we chose when he was a bit heavier, a bit more chunkier and he's, put a lot of weight on towards the end of his career and wanted to turn his whole life around and be more fit, be more health conscious. So that was quite fun to do.

Roziah (07:20)
Yes.

Heather Ebanks (07:46)
you know play with that that kind of concept. So yeah, I like that. It was really good. I think you did the the logo I think yeah

Roziah (07:52)
It was it.

Probably, yeah. think I do remember like doing the interior design a bit as well. So there was that. And then there was all the kind of like, yeah, like the promotional material, like the sort of menus and all of that sort of stuff. So there was quite a lot of different elements. was actually quite a lot of different elements. Kind of weird.

Heather Ebanks (08:00)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

There was, yeah. think we just figured out which we were the

strongest in regards to designing. think you were good at the branding. And I think I did most of the illustrations and the packaging. did that kind of collaboration with the packaging. It was good. So yeah, I still got it. If you want a copy of it, I still have it. ⁓

Roziah (08:21)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Yes. ⁓

God, you've actually, ⁓ do you know what? Like, you know, when we used to like save stuff on zip drives and flash drives and whatever, like I'm pretty sure it's all on there. So I have no idea how to get hold of it. I've got a firewire hard drive as well, and it's on somewhere. Don't know how to get it off. Yeah, hold check.

Heather Ebanks (08:40)
Tip drives, yeah.

Hmm

Yeah, yeah, old tech. I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's a way. But so after

uni, so I think we did another collaboration. We did like a sportswear brand for free of a local client. Yes, we, again, that was interesting. I think it was just at the tail end. Yeah, was at the tail end. I think we were busy trying to get our university,

Roziah (09:04)
Yes. Yeah. That was like after uni though, think it was, I can't remember.

Heather Ebanks (09:16)
exhibition sorted as well. And it was a job. Yeah, exactly. So, but yeah, that was interesting. Because there was

Roziah (09:19)
Yes, and get some money in.

That

was interesting, was an interesting lady.

Heather Ebanks (09:28)
Yeah, there's only one post, I think there's one position. I I didn't I felt kind of uncomfortable kind of competing with you with it. how will I feel about it? I think it was more, I think I needed to be more business like about it. So I thought let me try and find an opportunity where there wasn't one.

So I was trying to persuade her. I remember trying to get her to think, well, you thought about the branding, but have you thought about how would you pull it together? Because she was thinking about marketing and getting manufacturers on board as well. So I remember that. And I thought, well, have you thought about...

Roziah (10:01)
Yes, yeah. But also you've

got a fashion background as well, which is kind of interesting as well. So you've got that. So going back before our uni days, you actually done fashion. So then it was like, okay, how do you get, yeah, how do you use both of your skills or both of your sets of skills?

Heather Ebanks (10:06)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Yeah, went to London College of Fashion. it was more like garment construction It's more like tailoring. So bespoke tailoring, which is more like, you if you heard of Savile Row, we did lot of hand sewing and construction. I love the pattern cutting side of things, how to make clothes from basically a 2D pattern.

I wasn't very good at like maths and at school and you had to use a lot of fractions and maths. I went, great, I'm not going to be good at this. So with all skills I had from London College of Fashion days, I when I talked to this client that we dealt with on this project that she was still focusing on the branding, but not on.

construction of the garments that she wanted to make. So I decided to kind of crowbar my way in and get like an opportunity that you haven't thought about. needed the constructions of like when you go to the manufacturers with your ideas, you need to show them the working drawings of how to make it because at the time she was showing us like fabric swatches and she was getting excited about what kind of different color ways she wanted to do.

Roziah (11:18)
Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (11:31)
but you didn't think about how would you actually do it. So I thought...

Roziah (11:36)
It was a weird sort of project because it seemed like she just had a little bit of money and wanted to spend it somewhere and do a bit of a project for herself. But then it was like, like you say, hadn't, it's like she thought about all of it together, but they're not really focused on the product. So was a bit one of those sort of dragons den sort of situations where like,

Heather Ebanks (11:42)
Right.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah it was.

Roziah (11:59)
hadn't thought about the financial

parts or the you know the real parts that make your products successful they think about like all the branding first and then all of that and it doesn't really make sense when you've got you need the product ultimately to sell so

Heather Ebanks (12:05)
Yeah.

Hmm, exactly. Yeah.

So, but yeah, it was an experience that we've still remember today, but it was a good starting point working with a client from uni. So, yeah, after uni, I know, scary looking, looking for work. Yeah.

Roziah (12:25)
scary days. It's a scary days when you're like,

yes, yeah, looking for work and like starting off as a designer. What did you do after that? Because I'm sure we sort of might have disconnected for a little while at that time as well. Like we hadn't, I think we all just went our separate ways, didn't we? So we didn't really like, so I don't know how, I don't even know like what you did really for like a

Heather Ebanks (12:34)
Mm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (12:54)
a significant period of time and whether you were still, you know, yeah, exactly. And there you go. Didn't do anything. Forward 10 years.

Heather Ebanks (12:57)
You and me both, I don't remember what I was doing. There you go, if you don't know, I don't know.

Yeah, exactly. No,

but I do remember I just been been silly. It was tough. think the economy wasn't great at the time. I think it was, yeah, 9-11, I 2001. I think it was when obviously September 2001, things kicked off and I think the economy was a bit shaky regards to employing people. And I literally was trying every single day to apply for work.

I was applying for, I think we maybe applied for similar jobs and it was just tough. At the time, as well as going to uni, I was working at Habitat, which is a retail store in the UK, was very interested in like startups, the kind of new, kind of the new kids on the block with regards to.

Roziah (13:38)
Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (13:57)
who were cutting edge regards to graphic design and technology. So I was going for a lot of startup jobs, but again, they were quite small. And again, they will probably have a specific person they had in mind. So I had my portfolio. I went around for over two years trying to get that job and it still wasn't working. So obviously you've got bills to pay. And I thought, okay, I've got other sets of skills and transferable skills. I just work in...

maybe a business, retail capacity, which was what I was doing at the time. So yeah, it was tough.

Roziah (14:30)
Yeah, kind of

similar. I basically, I think I had an option for a job in illustration and I applied for it, but then sort of found out that the salary was like 16 grand, which was like a normal starting, you know, wage for like any, anyone at that period of time in any agency in design. I remember like

Heather Ebanks (14:39)
cool.

Junior, yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (14:59)
saying to my dad, it's like 16 grand, what do you think? And he's like, no, you can't do that. Because he was like, obviously, he's further on in his like, working life. And so he was like, that's like nothing, what are you going to do with that? And so I, I kind of didn't go for it in the end, because I was like, it's 16 grand, it's just like, it's nothing. And, and actually, I do, I do still wonder, like, if I pursued that.

Heather Ebanks (15:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Roziah (15:28)
what would be, what would my life be now? Would I, cause I'm not in creative necessarily anymore, but then it's like, okay, would that have led me more down the creative path? Cause it was very pure, like illustrative, illustration, hands on deck. And then I went for another job, which happened to be 16 grand anyway. And, and that was like completely, you know, it was designed, but just something else.

Heather Ebanks (15:30)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Roziah (15:55)
some other kind of design, which

led me more to what I do today. So it's kind of like, it has led me down a path, but you kind of end up working in a slightly toxic environment or culture for quite a long time, but you enjoy the work, so you put up with it. And you're young and you're going into London. yeah.

Heather Ebanks (16:00)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I did, it

did do like a few like apprentice internship type positions. Yeah, I remember I did my degree in my late 20s. But at that time, I thinking, I'm a bit old to be applying for like, apprentice type roles. But I went for it anyway, because it's

needed the experience. So I did, I remember doing about two or three, like working at agencies. So yeah, to see what it's like in industry of graphic design or communication or marketing, whichever they needed the designers. So yeah, I did a few of those as well, just to keep my CV, resume updated. But at the same time I was applying for the roles. I thought, okay, like I said before, need to pay those bills. can't,

live on nothing. But being in London, it's quite helpful to have opportunities. I think realistically, I just thought like, okay, I need to find a job that's full time. So I decided to work, but I needed to learn other skills other than graphic design. I as well as retail, I think I looked at more business capacity.

And I remember you were saying It's good to have a job that you can enjoy, but if eventually the environment got a bit toxic, it was a bit tricky to keep going on a nine to five job. First of all, it wasn't creative. And at the same time, it wasn't a good place to be. I've learned a lot, but at the same time, it's that kind of two-edged sword kind of situation. Yeah, was a bit.

Roziah (17:41)
Exactly. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (17:46)
bit crazy. Exactly.

Roziah (17:46)
moment it doesn't become fun, it's like, what's the point? Because

then it's like, are you really like you can learn money anywhere, you know, you can get like you've got the retail background as well. You've got the admin background as well, and the sort of business side of things. So it's like, get a job somewhere else, like move out of it as well. And I think as you know, there's that element of like not getting the promotions you want. Or the one or the

Heather Ebanks (17:56)
Hmm.

Mm.

Roziah (18:17)
not that you just want them, the ones you deserve. Like having been loyal, the ones you've earned, having been loyal to a business for so long, and then you're seeing these other people just come in from the outside and get those promoted jobs. It's not fun to watch that. So at that point you leave, basically.

Heather Ebanks (18:19)
Yeah, you earned, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I get understanding by leaving a situation, but when you're actually in it, it's easier said than done. Cause you know, the institution or the big company that I work for, they had so many departments that is a lot easier to move from department to department than it was to find something externally. So I did a lot of

department hop in from one place to another to see if it was any better. And of course, the problem was institution, not the actual department itself. So yeah, it was.

Roziah (19:10)
Yeah, but like you say, it's hard to recognise that, isn't it?

It's hard to like go, okay, it's the business that is not so great. It's not just the department, it's the whole business. But then again, with like, it's also wise to do that department hopping because you still got the benefits, you know, the sort of financial benefits of whatever you need for the future as well, things like medical care or whatever, know, pensions and things like that. it's

Heather Ebanks (19:32)
Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (19:39)
It's always a consideration and it's not easy. The job market's not easy and it's the job market's not like there's, you know, hundreds of people applying for every one role out there. How do you stand out?

Heather Ebanks (19:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

as well as that extra layer of like competing with other people I found that especially senior managers put their stamp on their, their team. So to work because they've got particular, style or they want to be seen as being very,

career led or, you know, they've got their own personal career, you know, aspirations. People have their opinions and they pull it through their work in different ways. I did feel there was a lot of gatekeeping in the environment I was there bit of favoritism going on. And, you know,

As well as being like, only black person in my team. I did feel like I wasn't being given the opportunities not necessarily, I deserve it, but I worked hard for it, as you said. So, and there was a lot of, you know, toxic kind of, I felt like certain jobs weren't given to me maybe because I wasn't qualified. That's fine. But there were some, yeah, underlying, racism going on that.

It's very nice.

Roziah (20:50)
Yeah, 100%. I think you can, like I'm, you know, I've sort of seen things as well happen where there's a lot of favoritism. Not so much now the sort of racial aspect, but I can understand that. And I think if you feel it in your gut, it's probably true. Especially if you're qualified or more than qualified for that role. ⁓ And especially if you've been loyal.

Heather Ebanks (20:57)
Mm. Mm.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Roziah (21:18)
to that business or whatever. So I would say that your gut instinct was probably correct, that there was underlying racism, unfortunately. And they just look at you, basically. All they have to do is just look at you and make a judgment. It's nothing about what you look like on CV, on page.

Heather Ebanks (21:24)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

about the same time, it's like, and it wasn't all about racism. I think it was also that they just needed, they saw me as a hard worker. I'm good at doing like the manual stuff, all the figuring things out. Even though wasn't, the role that I was doing at the time wasn't a design creative, graphic design position. But soon as they knew that I was creative in some...

job that they wanted me to do. Like I think there was, I had to go and promote some part of the organization. They needed some leaflets created, but they thought, Heather can do it. She's doing that kind of stuff. But I was, kind of felt bit resentful because I was thinking, well, excuse me, I'm not paid to do that role. That's not why I'm here. And they wanted me to do all the creative stuff at the same time, not giving me

the promotions of the jobs that were advertised. And I think I play for.

Roziah (22:32)
And you're

not going to get the recognition for that either.

Heather Ebanks (22:34)
No, exactly.

I think I applied for like one senior role or the same type of role four or five times. That's when one of the times I left to go to another department and I thought, okay, this is ridiculous. Eventually when I did move out of that particular team, I went to another one and it was fine. But again, there were other issues like redundancy. That's another, a long story.

I was unfortunately made redundant almost twice and I said almost because what they tend to do is they ring-fence certain jobs so that you basically reapply for similar roles again. So yeah, so that happened.

Roziah (23:06)
Hmm.

Yes. But do

you think, were you getting the feedback for not winning those senior roles or moving up or getting promotions?

Heather Ebanks (23:23)
⁓ just the usual, after you had your first or maybe second interview, they said, we can see that you did really well. And, know, they were kind of, you know, they did the usual HR spiel they were trying to be very careful of how they word it. I think they just kept the professional, this is a great opportunity for you, but you know, try again next time situation.

Roziah (23:46)
Yes.

Heather Ebanks (23:46)
So yeah, that kind of thing.

Roziah (23:47)
Yeah. And I think as well, you sort of picked out something that I've kind of only figured out recently with promotions. I've watched a few people on YouTube who kind of like tell you about that sort of work culture and like give you tips on like how to manage them, where to, where to go, where you need to. And one of them is if you're a very good doer and you are

Heather Ebanks (23:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Roziah (24:13)
you know, you're always reliable, you always deliver, they will tend to keep you in that place. So they will tend to keep you there because there's no one else that can do it better. Therefore, if they give you a promotion, you're going to have to relinquish all of those responsibilities, who else is going to do it? So that's why they keep you there, which is obviously not what you want to be doing when you're on a career ladder or a career path, especially in something that's not your

Heather Ebanks (24:18)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Roziah (24:40)
you know, your first choice, as it were. Do you think like any of that sort of experience has shaped where you're going to now and what you've thought about? Because I know obviously you've kind of like left that world behind somewhat as well and just said, I'm going to be creative. I'm going to do whatever I want to do and I'm going to enjoy it for myself.

Heather Ebanks (24:42)
Exactly,

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, I think at the time when I would talk about the redundancies, I was basically exhausted mentally and physically. was in that organization for over a decade. And after the second attempt to be redundant, and I I put in quotation marks, successful, the second job that I was successfully made not redundant.

I basically, six months in I think, I just looked at everybody that was in my team and I thought, I was seeing people who were like really highly qualified in their industry, being dismissed and seeing good people that I work with go out the door, who have families, who've got responsibilities and mortgages. And I thought, do I want people to be,

in charge of my career, my life. And I said no to myself. I thought, in six months, can I come to this job, feel confident and happy about doing what I do? Can I get up and feel energised And I thought, no, I can't do it. Can I do it in six months? Can I do it in three months? And each time I got closer to, can I do it tomorrow? And I thought, no, I can't do this anymore. And I came home to my partner,

he was very kind and he was very supportive. And my concern was obviously, can I pay the mortgage? That's the first thing, because if I were to leave, what would it be like? How can I, you know, survive without,

this full-time income. Because I've been, to be honest, from school to up to in my thirties, I've been constantly working nonstop. I have not worked at all. So the thought of not working scared me. But then the thought of working in a job that was physically, I was going through a lot of physically as well. My body was telling me and screaming out loud that this is not for you anymore. I was drained.

I was a complete mess. So I thought, my partner, said, right, that's it. Just leave. I'll support you and I'll be there for you. okay, let's make a plan. Three months, I'll save up enough money and I'll just leave. He goes, no, just leave next month. I went, okay. It was scary, but with all that in mind, I just thought, while I'm going through all of this, with all the pressure,

I decided that I wanted to start up a blog called Digital Fluidity. And that's when I started blogging about lifestyle and design because I needed an out, I needed an outlet, something that I could, call my own and that was creative. So I started blogging at the same time as leaving a full-time job. So yeah.

Roziah (27:40)
And I really loved those blogs as well. So they were like, sort of, yeah, yeah, no, like, I mean, obviously you'd share them as well. So you obviously let me know. And then, you know, I'd sort of like come across them and just go, this one might be really interesting. And do you know what? At the time as well, I was just like, ⁓ I'm really jealous of Heather Like she's just going out there going to like, well, obviously nobody, unless you're in the frame of mind where you absolutely love work.

Heather Ebanks (27:43)
You read them? ⁓ that's kind.

yeah, yeah.

Really?

Mm.

Roziah (28:09)
and you really, that work is you and that's your identity. I think a lot of people have a lot of stuff going on in their lives. So they have families, they have houses, whatever. So for me, like work is a necessity or a life that I want to lead. So like you say, paying the mortgage, you know, supporting your family, being able to go on holiday, all that sort of thing. And I was just like, oh God, like.

Heather Ebanks (28:21)
Yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (28:37)
Heather's reached the pinnacle of what everyone, almost like not having to work for anyone, doing your own thing, experiencing culture, experiencing life and events, and writing about it. So I saw that as major refresh and something that I wanted to aspire to, really.

Heather Ebanks (28:46)
Mm.

Hmm.

I, yeah, yeah.

Even while I was busy going through, applying for my own job and redundancies were left, right and center. A colleague was saying, how was...

have you got the time to work a full-time job? Because all the events that I did, basically I found all the events I contacted the press. I knew that I wanted to do more photography as well. So I found out who the best people to speak to about getting press tickets for certain fashion events.

So I went out my way to find out who the right people were to talk to because I was.

Roziah (29:39)
You

were like the first influencer. You know what I mean? But like when you say that, even though I didn't even know that detail, but when you say like you went out and found all of these things, like people now are getting invited like influencers, people who are just like got a media following, social media following, are getting invited to these things. So you were doing like what the original onset of influencer life was like.

Heather Ebanks (29:41)
Hardly.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (30:08)
I guess.

Heather Ebanks (30:08)
Yeah,

I think always, probably it's a generational thing, but even today, think most of the people are just waiting for opportunities to come to their door. And I was so used to in that nine to five kind of hamster wheel of a job to wait for people to make a decision for me. And I thought, no, I need to take control. And by doing that blog, and I felt like I had the control taken back because I was the one responsible because I didn't know how to do a website.

I knew the designing of it. WordPress was completely new to me. I used WordPress. thought, why make my life harder? Why can't I just do a, you know, Squarespace or something like that? But I wanted to know how it, how a blog works, SEO, marketing, and get to know that side of things. The backend of ⁓ creating a WordPress site is not for the faint hearted. You need to get to know it really well. And if something goes wrong in the backend.

you're responsible for it and it shows up immediately on the front of the landing page. So it was good. It was a good experience because I need, I think I was craving new skills that weren't working in a business setting and yeah.

Roziah (31:20)
I

I've noticed as well, it's like if you're not learning anything new in the role, then it's pointless. You're just like, because I'm somebody who needs to continually learn or learn something new, rather than be the person that knows everything that people go to. It's like, if I'm not learning anymore, I need to move. And that's what I've identified, know, sort of recently, sort of like, I think I've got to the height of, you know, my role.

Heather Ebanks (31:26)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes, you've outgrown. Yeah.

Roziah (31:49)
I need to move on so that I can have fresh experiences and learn.

So I was, I think it's really interesting that you obviously had that support and the opportunity to kind of like leave it all behind. Do you think like everything started coming together then? So at the point where you were like, okay, just like I'll support you. you don't have to do this anymore.

Heather Ebanks (32:03)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Roziah (32:13)
again, like your health must have like got better, your perspective, your mental health even, you know, you're learning new things, was that all quite quick? Or did it still take, some learning to kind of learn how to relax, I guess, and be yourself?

Heather Ebanks (32:21)
Yeah.

Yeah,

because as I said, I've been over a decade of mentally being bashed from all sides from all, parts of that job on several jobs that I worked at in that industry, in that institution. It did take a long time because I think I left in, yeah, 2018. And I was, I didn't know how exhausted I was until probably a year or two after I left. Because

The first thing I thought automatically was, ⁓ soon as I finish, I'll take a few days off, a few weeks off even, I can't believe I was thinking this, a few weeks to recover and to now start applying for jobs again. But the problem I was having was that I was constantly applying for the same type of roles. I didn't need to apply for the same type of roles. And then as weeks and months went past, I decided, let me just put my whole...

energy into this website and in this blogging and working in more photography and doing the blog post I thought that will keep me going. It did take about probably two to three years to be honest to feel slightly more like myself because I didn't realize how drained I was until unfortunately when the pandemic started. it 2020? Yeah 2020.

Roziah (33:48)
Yeah,

2020 when it properly kicked off end of 2019.

Heather Ebanks (33:51)
Yeah, yeah,

so between 2018 to 2020, that's when I was doing a lot of my websites and blogging and going out to the fashion shows and taking a photography, but it was great. But then obviously everything started to shut down. I didn't do much blogging after that, but it did take a good two to three years for me to not.

go for those type of roles anymore because it's automatic. You just think, okay, this is what I know, this is what I do. Let me just go for, yeah, and I needed to unlearn that. So I didn't do any applying for jobs for that kind of industry anymore. I just needed the rest.

Roziah (34:19)
It's a mindset, isn't it? Yeah.

And I think when you're in it,

exactly when you're in it, though, you don't realize how long it takes. But then when you reflect on it, like two to three years is a significant amount of time to reset, come out of that mindset of I need this kind of job and this is where it's going to get me. And then also just recover mentally, help, you know, health wise. Like, that's quite shocking because that's sort of

Heather Ebanks (34:35)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (34:57)
That's the sort of level of what you expect with people who have really visibly obvious burnout. Whereas there's a lot of us that are on the hamster wheel and just keep going and keep going. You know what mean? There's that element of, we don't realize it, but ultimately we probably were at burnout at some point and we probably needed to say no sooner because now it's taken two, three years, which is a long time in anyone's life.

Heather Ebanks (35:00)
Hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

But even

at the time, yeah, even at the time it took, I think the warning sign was my body wasn't functioning the way it should function. And it's just a shame that it had to come to that point for me to say no, enough's enough. But like I said, a few years later, it takes time to heal. And even though I was thinking about applying for jobs and going back to that kind of environment,

Roziah (35:26)
to really fully recover.

Heather Ebanks (35:48)
I had to stop beating myself up because I was thinking, oh, felt I feel responsible. You know, I need to like, you know, start earning and blah, blah, blah. And my partner, he's, you know, carrying, you know, the burden for the both of us. And this kind of that kind of thing was going in my mind over and over again. But I had to stop and say, hold on, Heather, since the age of 15, 16, you've been working constantly up until 2018. You've been doing that nine to five and you've

Roziah (36:18)
and sign.

Heather Ebanks (36:18)
Yeah, yeah.

And at the same time working, working in retail or working, doing your studying, you went to London College of Fashion, you went to uni and working and traveling because remember you and I were traveling. Exactly. Yeah.

Roziah (36:28)
working. Yeah.

supporting yourself by yourself,

so without family as well. So it's, and I think it's that point of light where you accept the support where it's given as well, and not feeling that guilt for it and not being made to feel guilty for it, which is amazing support that you can get as well.

Heather Ebanks (36:37)
Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I did get a lot of support from my partner. knowing that that was the case, I felt relieved because I didn't have to worry. And they had the freedom just just to recover and to heal. I did a little bit of freelancing, but I think working and doing things I wanted to do.

going when I wanted to go, seeing who I wanted to see. Like you said, it's freeing. I think you basically have the opportunity to do what you wanna do if you can. Yeah.

Roziah (37:21)
It's living your life as well.

And I think as well in this sort of culture, you head towards like retirement age. You're told when you should be retiring, you're told how much money you should need by the time you retire. So it's a very structured process. And if you look at other cultures, you know, nobody goes, like a lot of other cultures, you don't have that concept of retirement age because

Heather Ebanks (37:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (37:47)
They have the ability to live their lives and afford their housing and afford the bills because the cost of living or the structure isn't there that we have. So then there's this element of conformity that you're conforming to a structure of like, I've got to like, you know, go to school, then I've got to get a degree, then I've got to get a job, and then I've got to work for 30 years and then pay my national insurance so can retire at this.

Heather Ebanks (37:50)
Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (38:16)
It doesn't exist in a lot of other cultures. And it's just nice to hear that you're doing what you want to do for yourself and your learning at the same time.

Heather Ebanks (38:19)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

I think you talk about family and culture and yeah, I think I have to say my mother was the probably the if it wasn't for her, I don't think I would have do the half the things I'm doing today. she was a midwife. I actually every time I think about because

you and your daughter. It reminds me of my mother and me when I was little because I spent a lot of time with her. We do a of things together. I remember we used to go to Central London, we go to, is it Hamleys, the department store? We looked at all the toys especially around Christmas. So I spent a lot of time with her. And I think from a very early age, she wasn't interested in...

to design at all, but she basically encouraged me to do what I needed to do and was passionate about it. I think I remember when I was going to, I don't know if you've been to many hairdressers and like salons, but you can spend hours sitting in the salon. and I was a little girl, I was very, very bored because you can spend hours sitting in the salon, waiting for your mother to get her hair done. So I remember looking at magazines and that's, I think that's where it started

I wanted to do something design by looking at the magazines at the salons. And I remember she took me to her workplace I remember she got loads of like medical books and there were like illustrations, like kind of bit like the natural history museum. You see like natural history.

detailed drawings. And there were basically illustrations of the human body, like the internal organs. And I was so fascinated with those medical books, and some medical books I shouldn't have seen. It was a bit gross. I really don't want to see internal organs of operations. But yeah, those medical books were very fascinating to me. So I think from a very early age, I was

Roziah (40:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Like photographs.

Heather Ebanks (40:20)
interested in that kind of thing. yeah, but for my mother, yeah.

Roziah (40:22)
And you have to be

in an environment where you get exposed to that sort of stuff as well. So where you are surrounded by books or you're surrounded by different environments or you're with different people that makes you think, you know, we didn't have phones back in the day. weren't sitting there scrolling. Exactly. Yeah, we were all at horse and cart and like, you know, encyclopedias. So you had to learn.

Heather Ebanks (40:31)
Yeah

Holds a card.

dial up internet.

Roziah (40:47)
Yeah, but you had to learn somewhere else. And I feel it's really sad that people aren't like exploring more places or even just going out there watching the world. They're all on their phones walking around. Whereas I don't walk around with my phone. Yeah, just going to the library. just, you know, I walk the streets and I look at what's going on in the streets still, you know, and you see loads of people just walking the streets on their phones. I'm like, just look around you. Yeah, you might be on a commute, but you might see something that is inspiring or

Heather Ebanks (40:50)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Just going to the library. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Roziah (41:17)
is snapshot in life or something.

like, yeah, I'm definitely like, you have to know your culture and your background and, know that there are different things out there and it is the world, the world's big. So there's lots of opportunities in other countries, you know, other experiences to have.

Heather Ebanks (41:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, and

I definitely learnt a lot when I was doing the website and blogging and I also, as well as the ⁓ blog, I tried to get into communities more as well because I didn't have everybody from uni that we know gone their separate ways and I really liked that community aspect of being at university but I didn't have that obviously after we left so community was very high upon my to-do of getting to be part of someone else's community.

So I think when I was doing the blogging, there was like this, they're called Be Creator. It's basically a blogging community who support YouTubers and Instagramers and influencers. And I did kind of hang out with a lot of those people for some time. And everyone had their own individual blogs. So that was good way of getting to know people and build relationships. So yeah, I was always trying to, I remember doing, I was trying to.

Roziah (42:06)
Yes.

Heather Ebanks (42:35)
create one called where the creative types grow. Where the creative types, you could tell this wasn't gonna work. Where the creative types go. It was a bit of a mouthful because this was an idea I had for, I forgot about this. There's like things you can do like meetups with complete strangers and go have communities and what like-minded individuals. So I created where the creative types go.

Roziah (42:56)
Yes.

Heather Ebanks (43:02)
It's basically, if you're into art, we can go into an art gallery and start drawing together, but that never worked. I tried, it was awful. I think people didn't show up, I didn't advertise it very well. I did that, I forgot about that.

Roziah (43:14)
Well, that's interesting. There's a lot.

Maybe it's a time and place thing as well. I don't know, like, because there's a lot of that going on now. I think there's a lot of people just frustrated, like creatively frustrated people. So people that are obviously maybe not even from a creative education. They've got to a point in their lives where they need a creative outlet. And so they're starting to like, you know, have these meetups where it's like, oh, we'll just like paint for the for the evening. So it's a lot of like wine and

Heather Ebanks (43:19)
Yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (43:43)
paint and drink kind of meetups, that sort of thing is going on now. And that tends to happen with like a certain group of people in their life who have obviously maybe got parents, they may be parents and then they kind of like need that afternoon or evening off to expand.

Heather Ebanks (43:45)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, again, I was just trying to look for community, like-minded people. It was. Yeah, I think so.

Roziah (44:09)
That's a great idea. But that's a great idea. And I

like your, I like your concept of community as well, because it was so shocking after you leave uni, how people just fall off the face of the earth. You know, like these people that you've studied with for three years, and I have no idea where they all went. And there's only like you and a handful of others that I kind of keep in contact with, but a lot of them just

Heather Ebanks (44:23)
Yes.

Hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Roziah (44:35)
dispersed and then you're like, my community's gone. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm on my own again, you know?

Heather Ebanks (44:41)
Yeah,

those three years were just, I really enjoyed the connections and the friends that we made at the time. And I'm glad that we've kept in contact because it's so important to have people, because that course was, okay, it wasn't the best degree, but it was, it's something that we had in common as well as the jokes and the laughter we had. And I think having a community that gets you and understands you without you even

uttering a few words, it was great. And that's what I've always been looking for. And as soon as you go out into the real world, it's lonely out there. You need those connections. I think I'm always, trust me, I've been, there's so many communities I haven't just like dipped in and dipped out. I've spent a few years in some of these communities, but you have to know when to call it a quits because I did feel like with the blogging community that

It's the great people don't get me wrong, but I felt everyone was their own individual island. And there was this kind of like inner circle and outer circle and I was orbiting around the outer circle trying to get into getting to know people. And there's a few group of people that I connected with people look like me, were Asian or Indian or African backgrounds. And I was trying to connect with them more but

Roziah (45:46)
Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (45:59)
Again, they fell off the side of the planet and it was hard to get, yeah, difficult.

Roziah (46:02)
I think like,

yeah, communities come and go. And I think like, we've kept in touch, like you say, like there was that period after uni where we all just went off and like, we had no idea what we were doing at that time, you you're like, you're, you're young and you're like, oh, am I supposed to get a job now? So then you sort of lose touch. But then I felt like with you, I was, it was always, you were always one of the people I was going to keep in touch with.

Heather Ebanks (46:17)
Yeah

Hmm.

Roziah (46:29)
So I think you find that affinity of like, yes, we like similar things, got the same sense of humor. We find the same things interesting. And those are like your real kind of friends. And then I think like what you've done like in the last, like with your blog, with, you know, trying to create that community and keep in touch. But I think as well, it's like people's lives change. People are in a different frame of mind. You know, maybe they're like...

Heather Ebanks (46:40)
Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (46:55)
this isn't the cool thing to do, or maybe like I've got another community I'm in, I can't afford, you know, being part of that. But now you're like, you've moved into a new sort of part of your, I guess, creative career where you're starting to kind of like create another community. So I feel like, I feel like there's always that piece behind there as well, where you're like looking at other people's views.

Heather Ebanks (47:07)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roziah (47:23)
and

interpretation. So how, how is the last few years, I guess, since you sort of down tools with the blog, you've moved as well. away from me. like, I couldn't believe that you decided to move away from me. But, you know, there you go. So like, talk about like the

Heather Ebanks (47:34)
I'm sorry,

I'm sorry.

Roziah (47:45)
the next part of your life, guess, I would see this as a sort of a slightly different chapter of like, okay, you were winding down your London life and actually ramping up another life.

Heather Ebanks (47:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's definitely

different and got the cities and you know the metropolitan parts of being here. But I think for me, again, starting a new community was interesting. There's one in Cardiff, which is, I think they're sponsored by Adobe and it's called Creative Mornings. It's international, we can check online. They've got ⁓ volunteers who...

get designers come together and that's a good community because it's not just local, it's also international. when I was in London, I always look for communities outside of London as well. Cause I know the tendency, all things revolve around London, but there was such big communities outside in other cities in the UK and internationally.

So this was a good one to start off with because you can do things online and you can work with other designers. And I've been probably a couple of years going to it and also the smaller ones as well. So I think for me, I needed to find out what the layout of the land was,

when you're networking, I don't know what you're like with networking. If you've ever done any that it can be intimidating. And I think I didn't want to start, you know, trying to sell what I was trying to sell or promote. I just needed to build relationships and that was very important to me. So.

Roziah (49:15)
think you're braver than me though, because I'm very like introverted. I'm that person in the corner, who kind of doesn't approach people. Whereas you're quite, I'm going to approach people. I'm just going to talk. If they want to talk, they talk. If they don't talk, then I'll move on. Whereas I don't do that. So you're, you're probably quite well placed to kind of create and start those initial engagements, I guess.

Heather Ebanks (49:21)
Bye.

Mm.

Mm.

Yeah,

I think ever since like, ⁓ almost being made redundant. I don't know if this is a real saying, but you're long time dead. look, what's the worst can happen? You talk to someone, they don't connect with you, you move on. And I think I find it easier to talk to strangers because you're almost reinventing yourself. You probably talk to the next stranger and goes, make sure you don't mention anything about that conversation.

move on to the next person and you can reinvent yourself again. That's how I see it. It's harder for communicating with people that you know, because they know you really, really well and they can make a judgment of you. So when I went to another community

They said, okay, we're looking for volunteers to talk about their work. And I wasn't going to apply for it. went, no way. That means I have to speak to complete strangers with a microphone and talk about for 10 minutes. can be a very long time when you you're panicking and you're sweating on stage and talk about your, your design. So I went, everyone put your name down on the, on the

to sign up for, because we're looking for volunteers to talk about their work. So I persuaded my partner to do it. And then guess what? I ended up doing it. So I threw myself at the deep end, because that's what's the worst that could happen. So I think they did like 15, 20 creatives in the local area went up and talked about their work for 10 minutes. So not only it's fearful and scary and you know, what's the worst that can happen?

You just need to put yourself out there because most people don't even care. They don't remember you. I think you need to put yourself in situations. Yeah.

Roziah (51:17)
I think that's the point.

people don't like people like it's that mental mindset of like you thinking they're going to judge me, they're going to be like thinking that about me forever. it's like, nobody really cares because everyone's in the same situation. And it's not that they won't remember you, it's that they that there's the potential they might remember you as well. So it's like, great, the good things that will come from it. So it's always putting yourself in in the uncomfortable

Heather Ebanks (51:27)
Yeah.

Exactly.

The good things. Yeah.

Mm.

Roziah (51:46)
position that you're not used to and just going...

Heather Ebanks (51:49)
It's interesting, yeah.

I was going to say, I remember I was saying that I was the only black person in that organization. And let's face it, there's not many people look like us in certain parts of the country. And when I go to certain community events, there's not many people look like me. And before I always thought, okay, that could be seen as a disadvantage. But now I'm now seeing it more as an advantage because they are going to remember you.

It's not many people who have curly hair and glasses and look like me. And every time I go into these events where I am locally, they recognize me immediately. And now they're not just seeing me as what I look like, but now they see me personality and what I do. And yeah, it's good experience. think it's scary, yes, but I think you need to at do it once or twice if you want to network.

If you don't want to do it on your own, go with somebody that you're comfortable with.

Roziah (52:43)
Yeah.

And that's amazing. And it's actually, it was good that you both did that session because then you're backing each other up as well. So, and then you obviously can get that critical feedback of like, how do you think I was? You know, did I look nervous? You know, could I have said something? What else am I missing? And you can kind of like, you know, learn from it. So those sort of early experiences of like being in a new place, new communities, new...

Heather Ebanks (52:48)
Ahem.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly,

Mm.

Roziah (53:13)
new sort of living community as well as new creative community. How do you think that that's led you to where you are now, which is running your podcast and hopefully having a lot more kind of guest speakers on again, I guess, coming out of your comfort zone and doing something that is new to you. Having a, you know, not only setting up the studio, but having the subject matters, having the guests and all of that stuff.

Heather Ebanks (53:27)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's been interesting because, ⁓ obviously doing the research about, you know, starting a podcast, there's so many different points of view about it and actual process of it. It's kind of similar to doing the blog because everyone says, it's a lot of work. You've got to do this. You've got, you've got to do the research. I love doing research. So I had no problem with it. If you've done like a blog or, you know, written any content online, it's kind of similar, but

There are other elements to it, obviously, like I've never spoken using a microphone before. basically, anytime I do any research, I go full on. I look about, obviously, the practical side of things. Subject matter, I think it had to be personal for me and relatable to other people as well. I called it Creatively Eccentric and because...

We all, some people might think I'm not that creative or I'm not that eccentric. Some people might be a amalgamation of both, who knows, but I think it was an interesting way of finding out. always been fascinated as creatives, why we do what we do. And there's so much research on, people draw on their experiences. Some people design because, they've had a trauma in their life. Some people create because their, culture is very important to them.

And I've always been fascinated with designers, not just the obvious people who paint and draw and create. I've also been people who are thought leaders or thinkers. I've always been interested in how people think and that community aspect was a part of that as well. And learning about how can I have a point of view and also many times in any job that I've done, always been kind of hidden in the background.

And I've always talked about shining a light on underrepresented creators who don't look like, who basically do look like me, I should say, because they're the ones who do all the work, do all the creative stuff, but not get the recognition. There's lots of famous designers out there, but there was not enough people who had a platform or a voice to speak about their creativity. So underrepresentation could be...

neurodivergent could be someone who, who was black, who could someone who didn't have an opinion, So having a platform like a podcast is a lot of people who use podcasts to, communicate their point of view. And so I've had, I think I've got a lot of information under my belt and experience to have a platform like this. And so, yeah, it'd be interesting.

The conversations I've had so far have been very fascinating. I've managed to even been on a podcast myself So it was kind of like a full circle situation where I'm meeting people.

that I haven't met before and reconnecting to people that I've met years ago. So yeah, it's, yeah.

Roziah (56:33)
It's a funny

sort of evolution of the community aspect as well. It's the way you would have like been, you know, seeing people person to person, but now it's sort of, as well, opens out the world essentially. So it means that you can actually connect with people across the world if you really want to. And I think it, and also maybe like learn about those sort of, you know, cultures and what their experiences are. Obviously it might be, you know,

Heather Ebanks (56:36)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Yeah.

Roziah (57:02)
completely different for them because, they're the majority perhaps or, but I like what you were saying about, you know, sort of neurodivergent people as well and like how, you know, what the struggles they've had and what are their tendencies, you know, again, like with your personality traits, do you tend to stand in the background or do you tend to hide yourself because you're like, I don't want to be visible. I don't want to be like ⁓ up the front and

Heather Ebanks (57:06)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Roziah (57:28)
people also make those judgments on what you look like and that sort of thing. and so like with this podcast, where do you think like, how are you gonna like, obviously I know it's just sort of starting off. how do you want to, do you have plans of like how to develop it? What do you want to move on to? Are you gonna do anything in parallel to kind of support it? I know you're always got, you've always got projects that I think you've always got like.

Heather Ebanks (57:32)
Yeah.

Mm.

Mm.

Roziah (57:57)
ideas in the back of your mind. So where do you think you're heading to in the next, I guess, like couple of years maybe?

Heather Ebanks (58:04)
Yeah, I think when I thought about this podcast, I was thinking, okay, not just it being a podcast, it's going to be more of a, you could say a bigger ecosystem. So the podcast is just the beginning of what I have in mind. I think for me, it's, it's more as well as I said before, a community. I think the community aspect is going to be more developed, whether that is doing courses, whether it's even now I'm developing a, a quiz,

a get to know the audience kind of quiz. And that's kind of a way of finding out what people would like as subject matter. I don't want to be just me and myself and I or my guests talking at the audience. I want the audience to get involved as well. And I think by doing that, I probably open myself up and getting to know the different types of cultures and people out there, the different creatively eccentrics out there because

we're having a conversation now about our perspectives, but there's so much different variations out there. But yeah, I think I did say on the podcast that I was interviewed on that I would like to maybe have a book of some kind. Don't hold me to it. But yeah, Creative Accenture is not just the podcast. I think it's a community. And yeah, even like...

having like kind of, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I thinking.

Roziah (59:21)
It's like gathered learnings as well. like you can self publish as well. So it can be like,

you know, series of blogs or essays or whatever. doesn't have to be, you know, formal. A novel. Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (59:30)
Yeah, a novel. exactly.

But I was also thinking like even taking it to I think I mentioned this is way down the line, not necessarily in the next two years, but maybe sort of like a bit of the through the keyhole kind of situation where people go and see what the creative eccentric, how they live and their lifestyle and behind the scenes kind of situation. Because obviously, most designers, they design.

what you see, but it'd be nice to see how they live their life, whether it's their interiors or their lifestyle. So yeah, that's so many options. I've got quite a lot to, yeah.

Roziah (1:00:08)
And it kind of that

brings an element of your previous blogging as well, which was sort of lifestyle and culture as well, like how you live and that sort of thing. I find that quite interesting as well, like how people live and, you know, what they're, what, how are they creative at home? Can you see that they're a creative at home or are they following a template sort of situation? You know, you sort of see the ideal home exhibition type house or are they, can you see that they are?

Heather Ebanks (1:00:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Roziah (1:00:37)
eccentric, essentially.

Heather Ebanks (1:00:38)
Yeah.

And I think when constructing the, the, podcasts, I had to think about, yeah, I have my kind of, you could say signature questions I have, but I think I needed to, as well as do my research, especially with guests, I need to make sure that I also get to know them and find out. Cause I do also some of the people that I've, know, maybe just one or two who have been on previous podcasts, I didn't want to answer the same questions and it needs to be relevant to the values, the mission and.

the target audience I had in mind, as well as the questions I had specifically for them. I wanted to make sure that it was entertaining, in educational, so yeah, I'm learning on the job as it were, because it's, sometimes I just think, okay, I'll just make it perfect. I went, nope.

And I already come up with my strap line, is bold voices, messy journeys, zero apologies. And I have to keep on remembering that because that's exactly what I'm trying to do. And I was needed to be more visible myself as a designer and not just shine a light on the people you know, under-representation. I had to remember that that's what I'm trying to do as well. I'm trying to shine a light on myself.

Roziah (1:01:50)
being proactive about it as well. there's that whole sort of, like you say, kind of people expecting jobs to come to them. Whereas actually, but also if the jobs don't come, what are you doing in the meantime? What are you doing to fill the gaps? How are you creative in the meantime? If you want to be creative, then you should be creative all the time and you should be creating something or making something or putting it out there. So like, are you doing in that sense?

Heather Ebanks (1:01:52)
Yeah, trying to.

Hmm.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, I think my creativity is my medicine that keeps me going because even if I never get paid to do any of this, I will still do it because it's what drives me. And when I didn't have those years of not being creative, I was creating in other ways, but a nine to five job, it showed in my body, I didn't feel...

seeing I felt sick, it was not doing me any good and putting your energy in something that your passion is, I do recommend doing it because you know can't keep going this way you know you're only on this planet on a certain amount of years you've got to do what makes you know passionate.

Roziah (1:02:59)
It's funny as well, you do see the people that surround you that don't have a lot going on in their lives. So it's very much work oriented and it's very much a stressful work environment oriented as well. So they sort of thrive on that kind of stressful energy. And I think, like you say, like you just, can see, you know, they're getting ill because of it as well, or they're getting a bad reputation because they're, you know,

Heather Ebanks (1:03:02)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Mm.

Hmm.

Roziah (1:03:27)
their stress is projecting onto other people. So it's like, yeah, like you say, life's too short, like live, like live for a little time. Even if you take a week off and just do things that make you happy, like even, you know, I've got a full-time job, I took a week off and I just went into London, like here and there and we did some things at home, did some activities, got the lino printing set out and was like, that had been sitting there for like 10 years.

Heather Ebanks (1:03:39)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Roziah (1:03:54)
I got that out and actually did some

lino printing. was like, my God, this is amazing. You know, just the simple things. Get the drawing book out, do some sketching, life drawing, whatever it is. You know, it's just, it's refreshing. And it is that outlet from reality, I guess, as well, if it's not your full-time work.

Heather Ebanks (1:04:00)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, I do recommend it. Rosie, I keep doing more creative stuff. I think you definitely need it because, you know, life can be soul destroying. Let's not make it more soul destroying. think, yeah, keep on being creative. Go back to the reason why you did what you did when you were at uni and why you were there. Because I think we can always think about what could have, would have been and et cetera worries me. But I think you need to reflect on the good times and...

Roziah (1:04:20)
Yes! Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Ebanks (1:04:42)
remember why you were doing being a creative. But yeah, even when I was thinking about ideas for like my solo episodes, I had to think about the stories in the past, things that would be relevant to, you know, the subject matter that I was talking about. And I've got so much, so many stories, I can't believe even the ones that you don't think, that's not really relevant. And you go back to it and thinking, okay, I remember why I did what I did. But yeah, and all of them tend to be

aha moments or creative moments. And then you can put that into your everyday life today. But yeah, there's loads of things I want to do, like I want to get back to doing them more physical painting and drawing. And even illustration, I want to do more illustration work. So yeah, I think you need to find the time to do it. I know people are busy. But I think if you don't do it, you'll you don't want to be that person on your deathbed saying, I could have done that I could have done this, you know.

Roziah (1:05:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Hmm. And

I feel as well, you're like quite, you're the person that sort of is more ahead in tech anyway. So then it's like, how do you strip that back? I feel, well, I feel like, you know, when you're looking at illustration, you're doing it like three ways. So you're sort of going like old, old traditional, let's draw on paper, let's scan it in, let's draw over this and let's use the tools. So, and you're always like experimenting in that way. So I think.

Heather Ebanks (1:05:41)
Mmm.

⁓ my, my,

Mm.

Roziah (1:06:00)
Yeah, sometimes you just need to go back to basics and just know, actually, this is quite fun, like just sitting here and like using your brain and thinking about something only focusing on one way.

Heather Ebanks (1:06:05)
Yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Exactly,

If it doesn't work out, doesn't work out, it's fine. And yeah, let's see what happens. And hopefully everybody who's listening will love the episodes.

So let's find out, shall we?

Heather Ebanks (1:06:27)
New episodes of Creatively Eccentric drop every other Thursday. Don't forget to follow on Instagram at Creatively Eccentric and subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts.